Radiologic and Pathologic Correlations

So last night I stayed later than usual after work to prepare for an interdepartmental conference that I will be giving next Friday before I fly out that night to attend the CAP Residents Forum and Annual Meeting. A radiology resident and I will be presenting two cases together to correlate their radiology and pathology, two specialties that have much in common, at least on the surface.

Both radiologists and pathologists, at least pre-ACA era and except for subspecializations like interventional radiology and transfusion medicine, do not often interact with patients directly. Therefore, both fields rely heavily on clinical observations and notes written by the primary care doctors caring for “their” patients. Both also require a broad knowledge of disease differentials, and frequently, understanding the prognostic and treatment considerations of the disorder under examination even though they are not involved in direct care of the patient. Additionally, both fields require good communication with primary care physicians.

Senior radiology residents attend a month-long course correlating radiology with the corresponding pathophysiology of diseases at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) now known as the American Institute for Radiologic Pathology (AIRP). I remember during medical school trying to set up an elective at what was then called AFIP but was not able to since it is only open to radiology residents.

At both my previous and current institution, the “rads-path conference” as it is affectionately called, is informal and driven by the radiology department in terms of case choices. It’s meant to be a learning experience but generally the only pathology residents who attend are the one(s) presenting while all the radiology residents available have to attend. Seems somewhat ironic that the learning is mostly one-sided, and it’s bad that our two departments don’t do this more as a true inter-departmental conference.

Pathology and radiology are two fields that also often get left out when publications are written even though our final diagnoses, and sometimes, even images are used within publication submissions. As residents in these fields, we should make an active effort to interact with our primary care counterparts frequently. We should do this not only to be included in such scholarly endeavors but also to show that we are also equal members of the patient care team and are not forgotten when treatment discussions take place.

It also happens with tumor boards as well that most of the choice of cases and topics for discussion come from the non-pathology department. So what are your opinions on how we should interact with other departments for patient care discussions and inter-departmental conferences?



-Betty Chung, DO, MPH, MA is a third year resident physician at Rutgers – Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital in New Brunswick, NJ.

General Versus Subspecialty Surgical Pathology Sign-Out

I’m currently on a month of neuropathology/autopsy at our main academic center. After 2 months at a busy surgpath site with a 1-1.5 hour drive each way, it’s finally nice to be able to take a breather. Here, I’m responsible for any neuro frozen and grossing that doesn’t go to the SP resident, helping with the cutting of autopsy brains, and sign-out of neuropath cases. Since we don’t have a heavy neurosurgery service, this allows me more time to learn at my own pace and I feel that I’m able to retain more.

Not including CP rotations, I’ve always learned more, retained knowledge, and performed better on the subspecialty rotations that I’ve had – hematopathology, pediatric pathology, and now neuropathology. While I acknowledge that part of this is my own fault because when I’m on surgical pathology (we do general SP sign-outs), I read up pretty much only on my cases. I know that I need to preview them for sign-out so I read up on the SP diagnoses and differentials. But I often am not motivated to read up on general systems, so I can be real hot mess (and as one senior resident called me recently, “stupid”) during unknown conferences. In CP topics and those subspecialty areas I’ve had rotations in, I’m quite the opposite and tend to excel.

Yesterday, was the first time I’ve been at consensus conference since my first year. At the community and VA hospitals where I’ve spent most of my SP rotations during my second year, we didn’t have group consensus conferences. I remember last year thinking during consensus, “please don’t pick on me to answer a question” during the inevitable pimp sessions that evolved. But yesterday, besides the fellow, I was the only senior resident present. But I was less apprehensive and intimidated than I had been when I sat in the same place the year before. So even though I don’t consider myself a person who is good at SP, I was adequate enough and I must have learned something over the past year without realizing it.

Obviously, how we teach surgical pathology is restricted by the type of sign-out practiced at the institution we are at and this often is dictated by specimen volumes, faculty expertise, and the cultural philosophy dominant there. Even though I thought that I had taken this question into consideration when interviewing and ranking programs, I realize now that I didn’t have a complete grasp on how training styles and cultures really would affect me. Probably since I’m graduate school trained first and naturally think more like a scientist that focuses on one area and learning everything about that area, subspecialty sign-out works best for me.

Before starting residency, I had an intuition that this was true but thought that I would eventually adapt to a general sign-out format since that is how my institution practices. And I’ve adjusted, albeit maybe not progressed as quickly as my peers. It’s difficult to maintain all surgical pathology as subspecialty unless the volume is high enough and this usually means a large, well-known academic center if that’s what you need during your training. The majority of residents will end up in private practice and many often train at places where the sign-out is a more generalized one. So how do we match our learning needs with practice requirements at our training institutions with our eventual responsibilities as a pathologist in terms of sign-out? I can’t say that I have a solution for this conundrum but would welcome opinions on the topic. What works best to train our residents in surgical pathology?



Betty Chung, DO, MPH, MA is a second year resident physician at the University of Illinois Hospital and Health Sciences System in Chicago, IL.

Balance Between Service Obligations and Education

These past couple of days I attended the CAP Residents Forum and USCAP in San Diego. It was both an inspiring and daunting experience. Inspiring because of the breadth and depth of research and amount of scholarly expertise in the room every time I attended a lecture; daunting because of this same fact and also because of the reminder that someday soon I will need to be as expert and competent as these speakers.

With these thoughts in mind, I attended the first half of the morning of the CAP Residents Forum for their “Dating Game” panel where new-in-practice and veteran pathologists spoke about to getting and keeping your first job. It was actually an engaging panel and I learned practical information that was new to me and that will help me not only to obtain my first job but also when I apply for fellowship in a couple of months.

I attended mostly molecular pathology talks and the cytology short course that for someone who hasn’t had cytology yet, was informative. I got to hang out with friends from other programs that I met through the CAP Residents Forum and to hear how they are taught the practice of pathology. These conversations got me to thinking about whether service obligations can compromise our education.

For someone who is CP-oriented, I am at a program that is heavy on the surgical pathology (we do 17 months; previous classes did many more). And most of us are trained at academic institutions but my program also has rotations at a VAhospital and two community private practice hospitals. Life is different at the community hospitals but I hear that most residents will go on to practice in this type of setting. The volume can be high, there may be many tumor boards/conferences to present at or attend, and the turnover time is so strictly adhered to that you might not always be able to get protected preview time – even if eventually you do get to sign-out with the attendings after they’ve verified a case.

But does it matter about protected preview time if you don’t look at the verified diagnosis before you sign out with your attending? Does your program have CP residents covering autopsy call? Do your residents gross on Saturdays? Just what constitutes service obligations interfering with resident education in your perspective? Working in a clinical setting, patient safety and service obligations can take on a predominant role, but the quality of our work cannot suffer. So what makes for the right balance between service obligations and resident education and what can we do to ensure that resident education is made a priority?



Betty Chung, DO, MPH, MA is a second year resident physician at the University of Illinois Hospital and Health Sciences System in Chicago, IL.

Resident Didactic Training – How Do You Learn Best?

Lately, I’ve been thinking about what I need from my residency training to become a competent pathologist when I graduate and how I learn best. I’ve never been a good audio learner so I don’t learn as much from a purely lecture-based education. And truth be told, I often skipped classes during medical school but wasn’t reprimanded probably because I did fine in my classes. It’s taken me years to realize but I learn best by making connections. Maybe it’s the scientist in me but I remember more, and can figure out the concept again if I forget it, if I understand mechanisms than by rote memorization. So for me, what I need most is time that often is not afforded in a live lecture. I often prefer to watch video recordings on pathology topics because I can stop the recording and think (or jot down a note or two). The “flipped classroom” concept works better for someone like me.

And so, this brings me to resident education. Unlike other specialties, we spend a lot of time on didactics. But there are many different permutations to how programs accomplish this objective. At my program, we have a lot of live lectures or multi-scope sessions. I faithfully try to attend (especially since we have a 90% attendance policy), but most of my attendings know that this is not how I learn best. Anything I have to learn by hearing on the spot has never been my strength.

But, I’ve found two methods at my program that do fit my learning style. First, we have a whole slide scanner. It’s great because we are allowed to scan slides to build our own virtual slide sets for repetitive study later if we so choose. Also, our surgical pathology director has given much of her time to annotating slides for us to use for “unknowns.” She can even compile data such as tracking how long it takes us to find an important required feature on the slide as well as our movements on the slide. She can also compare our scores from year to year if we use the same slide set (which we found didn’t significantly increase our knowledge if tested on the same subject the following year so we’re no longer required to do so).

With digital slides, I like having the option to go back and look over the slides as many times as I need. I didn’t realize how fortunate we were to have a slide scanner at our disposal until I presented some of this data at USCAP during my first year – many residents and attendings that stopped by my poster told me that they didn’t have access to digital slides or a slide scanner at their institutions. But looking at whole slide imaging (WSI) is a skill we all need to master since up to 2/3 of our AP boards can be digital (not glass) slides so I’m glad that I’m exposed to it early and throughout my training.

The second method that I found that really helps me to learn surgical pathology is the unknowns conference conducted at one of our four hospitals. We’re given four slides (which is the perfect number to cover in up to an hour) a couple of days in advance and the residents work together to come up with a differential and diagnosis. Since our attending always gives us papers on the diagnoses, we often read articles while we are working up the differential – which for someone who is used to reading journal articles and reviews, is right down my alley! We take turns during the conference driving at the scope and describe what we see at low then high power and then we give our differential and begin to narrow it down.

After each slide, our attending will reveal the correct diagnosis, point out salient morphologic features (especially with mimickers that can confuse us), and ask us about appropriate ancillary tests and expected results before giving us articles to read on the diagnosis. I’ve found that the interactive approach really helps but more so than that is the visual learning (ie – reading books and articles, googling on the internet) that I did to prepare for this conference. More important than getting the right diagnosis by “wallpapering” (ie – matching up a picture with the slide to reach a diagnosis) is the thought process to narrow down the differential.

And lastly, this is not specific to my program, but I am a strong supporter of open sourcing and sharing of free online didactics. I’ve often found great videos from other programs online or on YouTube to supplement my learning. So how do you learn best? Does your program provide all the tools that you need?



Betty Chung, DO, MPH, MA is a second year resident physician at the University of Illinois Hospital and Health Sciences System in Chicago, IL.